\\”No, Iâm not committing the same mistake Krauss committed. Therefore, it is clear that the Kalam is dependent on the truth of substance dualism. God was the cause of his own decisions just as we are causes of our own free choices. And if the probability is zero, then it will never produce the effect. In this context, "Thomistic" means "by Thomas Aquinas". Does The First Law Of Thermodynamics Undermine The Kalam Argument? You canât dictate whether causality will hold or not. Your analogy is false because it would have to assume black people are naturally wired to accuse non-black cops of being racist and brutal. Since the cause existed sans time, the cause, therefore, cannot have a beginning. Iâm denying there are actual things; only potential things (which are obviously not actual). “What time? What causes this contingent being to exist must be a set that contains either only contingent beings or a set t… But they believe God exists and (at least I think) they believe He has libertarian freedom. That is, they begin to believe X, not because of emotional reasons, but because of the supposed evidence, whereas the theist begins to believe Y because of emotional reasons and then tries to rationalize it (which gives me reason to be suspicious). . The former says (note: I’m using Aristotelian categories of causation) that something can come into being without a material cause, but it needs an efficient cause. Ergo, I suspect that this is a straw man. There is nothing there to have potential? Moreover, asking “what triggered Godâs will to act?” in a sense presupposes that God is not in control of his own actions (it presupposes that he isn’t a free agent) because you’re essentially asking what determined a free agent to make the choice that he did. Stephen T. Davis, Ronald Nash, Robert Koons, and Alexander Pruss. That’s what you said. Unimaginably Powerful (if not omnipotent) â Anything able to create all matter, energy, space, and time out of absolutely nothing must be extremely powerful, if not omnipotent. . That is one hell of a leap. And your most recent comment is just a long rehashed ad hominem. They argue our Minkowski space-time is inside a larger Minkowski space-time. All other religions involve either an eternal cosmos that have God or gods bringing order out of the eternally existing matter, energy, space and time, or else their god is the universe itself (pantheism). In my view, just like of most scientists, what dualists call “mind” is just an abstraction of a process. Likewise, you could never cause your decision to use cap or fedora if you were frozen timelessly. . I never expected the pitiful, flimsy objections RR put forth. This objection is just as underwhelming as the previous two. That seems to be the only possible solution to the problem. You stated there are three arguments that demonstrate the truth of the Causality Principle â as a metaphysical principle rather than a rule derived empirically from physical reality. But I find this one to be the most compelling. ” Nothingness is not an “it”. For God to come into being, His creator must have come into being, and before that creator could come into being, the creator before him had to come into being, and before that creator could come into being, the creator before him had to come into being, and so on back into infinity. If so, how does your… idea fare under the weight of this criticism?” If it’s not a zero probability, then given infinite past time, it will be actualized. Just like the super-fast flamingos on Pluto that have such radically different biology (laws of biology that I refuse to specify) that no biologist or philosopher of science could refute me….or even evaluate my thesis in any meaningful way. However, we donât have any evidence that laws of causation observed to operate inside a developed universe, also operate in the absence of one. This is logically and metaphysically possible and you’ve provided no arguments to think otherwise.” I’m conceding the arguments against infinite regress and scientific arguments are true for the sake of the argument, so that we can discuss the important subject without avoiding it and jumping to other non-related arguments. \\\”Potential things are by definition not actual; âpotentialâ is just a word we chose to describe when X or Y can do something. Craig didn’t present any argument against the strict or broad logical impossibility of the latter. With all that said, I’m still unclear of how your hyperspace scenario can explain how our appears to have begun to exist only approx. Believe me. We can’t keep pushing scientific or metaphysical models if they have the problems you just mentioned. If you asked “Well, what caused you to do X?” you’re begging the question against LFW. You stated there are three arguments that demonstrate the truth of the Causality Principle — as a metaphysical principle rather than a rule derived empirically from physical reality. Answer: This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the claim. The same applies to any other ordinary mechanistic cause. It's POSSIBLE that exbeliever is really a Mormon and he's just pretending to be an atheist because he gets his kicks out of it (and all his statements to deny this would just be more proof of how much he gets his kicks out of it). The conceptual analysis part of the argument is being totally ignored by RR. So, that’s the problem here. A belief in a god is just as baseless, untestable, and possible as a belief in a yniverse.The Kalam argument, while attempting (and failing) to prove a god, also attempts to *disprove* a yniverse. The Kalam Cosmological Argument and William Lane Craig #1. “If The Kalam Cosmological Argument is sound then at least one thing is immaterial; the cause of the universe! What I said was “I canât imagine anyone embracing your weird hyperspace… on purely rational, scientific, evidential grounds.” I am well aware of all sorts of proposals by atheists to get out of theistic conclusions to the arguments I and other apologists present. . You’ve given crappy rebuttals that you think are brilliant refutations despite everything I’ve said to the contrary. . But the point remains that such a being as described by this argument must exist” 2. This being that is demonstrated to exist by this argument is consistent with The Christian God. My argument at the end of my previous response was not an argument for the truth of the law of causation. I’m amused! THE MECHANISTIC AGENT DILEMMA Cosmological Arugument debunked - Khuda pehli cause hai ya nai? . If the argument applies to both, then we would be forced to admit that both views are incoherent; we would be left with a nice paradox since none of the alternatives are coherent (I can live with that).” That’s a false dilemma and I hope people will see this when they read these comments. . #1 is not a known fact, but a supposition. . You then brought up Stephen Hawking’s no-boundary proposal, which I’m fully aware of. I would also like to hear your thoughts on the WLC article I linked to regarding strict and broad logical possibility in relation to the principle of ex nihil, nihil fit. I have arguments for why the universe's cause must be uncaused. — https://www.noblindfaith.com/pdf/sermon/TheSingularityWhoisAgentX.pdf But some of them are so outlandish, so ad-hoc, that I can’t imagine anyone embracing them because they really think it’s the best explanation, but simply because they don’t want to admit that there is a God. But why think a thing like that? P.s. And I’ve addressed both of these already. A classic which has recently been re-polished and re-popularized, it has withstood the test of time in its field. What is that? However, as I pointed out in my website, âpotentialâ is not a Platonic substance. And hence, the proponents of this argument almost always employ additional arguments to reach their conclusions including the likes of Craig”. IF spontaneous events can occur, the possibility of insufficient but necessary non-personal causes is certain. In fact, I was reading an article some days ago where the philosopher Robin Le Poidevin argued there is “proof that causes are never â arguably, could never be â simultaneous with their effects, based upon a principle widely accepted”. Thus, RR says that steps 2 and 3 of the argument employ the same words with different meanings. Both God’s decision and the hyperspace’s spontaneous effect are free of prior determining conditions. The term I used (i.e., observation) is clearly a simplification. If this is a space different than Minkowski space, what are the properties of that space? . Blind faith is for intellectual losers. The only difference between this speculation and theistic philosophers’ is that nobody wasted their time trying (and failing) to prove the existence of my transcendent apple. \\” It is not like God could have timelessly chosen not to create the universe.”\\ — Well if that’s true, then neither could your sci-fi hyperspace idea. The decision occurred in time, yes. What I’m challenging here is the claim that the causal principle — in the sense of efficiency — is metaphysically necessary — and not merely nomological. I find it implausible to believe that a Triune (3 in 1?) Of course. Moreover, there are ordinary cosmological models where the universe existed in a timeless state prior to the Big Bang, and then, spontaneously became temporal. No problem with that. But that’s not what you said in your previous comment. Given that hyperspace is just a realm of abstract mathematics, and not a real concrete entity, and given that undifferentiated time is just sequence or indices (like the letters of the alphabet; A, B, C, D, E), your view doesn’t avoid the problems the traditional Mother Universe is plagued with. Indeed. I admit that The Kalam doesn’t get you to the uniquely Christian conception of God, but it does get you to a conception of God that doesn’t match the majority of the ones most religions out there. It doesn’t even suggest, let alone prove that this cause was a being, and it certainly doesn’t suggest that that cause was a being that is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, personal and moral. Didnât you say a ways back in this conversation that one of the ways we know Minkowski space had a beginning was the infinite regress arguments? . I'm kicking myself for missing it, but it was TOO obvious. . The claim that something physical existed prior to Minkowski spacetime is perfectly compatible with the arguments against an infinite past and modern cosmology — further, it doesn’t require any scientific past-eternal model to be true, since it is a metaphysical question and not a scientific one. If one asserts something cannot come FROM nothing, then they are saying something must come FROM something else (i.e a cause). Posted by 3 years ago. Making the decision was itself the introduction of time. Uncaused â Given that the cause of the universe is timeless, the cause cannot itself have a beginning. . I simply misinterpreted what you meant by “observation”. Bias still doesn’t mean Craig’s wrong. Unfortunately, I think his skull will always be just a tad to thick for reason to squeeze its way through to his brain. However, there is no continuity to interrupt since time intervals do not exist here. On the other hand, both of us know Craig has many reasons to argue simultaneity is possible, one of them being that it is necessary for the Kalam to work (or isn’t it not?). . Perhaps, you could say, it is not relevant to the point here since we’re already assuming it came from nothing physical rather than changing form, but it misses the point: it would still have implications for other arguments like the one about the personal cause choosing in an infinite timeline, for example. Instead of God you can posit a yniverse! ÂIs this even an argument? To falsify the inference to the spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncreated Creator would be to undermine one of the two premises” “Yeah, âThe decision is only made when there is timeâ because the very instance of making a decision whereas one didnât exist before is itself the creation of time.” I find it amusing that you atheists and agnostics only think the Christian philosopher is the only one who is ever biased and therefore cannot be trusted. Philosophers realize that abstract objects if they exist, they exist as non-physical entities. But there’s no way that a causal influence can travel through time and leap ahead from t2 to t1 to produce the event. Because I think theistic apologetics is obviously just a flawed rationalization for something that is not supported by the evidence and is believed because of non-intellectual reasons. Thus, you haven’t avoided an absolute beginning. . The problem remains. William Lane Craig, a … But it can’t be, because this prior universe is eternal. Moreover, people who are very emotionally invested in some belief are more likely to cherry pick the evidence, ignore potential mistakes and contradictory evidence. It is perfectly possible. Further, there is evidence my model is correct, according to you: arguments against an infinite past, beginning of the universe and bla bla bla. In other words, to affirm the statement "The universe is uncaused", you must deny at least one of The Kalam Cosmological Argument 's premises. Any time you find a theist trying to argue the existence of God from a logical point of view, chances are extremely high that you can win by showing that their argument is either circular or requires supposition of the first premise and is therefore invalid. One of his many videos is “The Kalam Cosmological Argument Debunked – (First Cause Argument Refuted)”. In other words, the source of power exists eternally and only gives rise to a spontaneous effect at the first moment in time because, unlike ordinary impersonal causal relationships, the effect must not be “present” eternally (remember, it is not an ordinary causal relationship, but one that involves uncaused — in the sense of efficiency — events). This entails the cause could be any logically possible inanimate entity we don’t know about and perhaps could never understand. Thanks for you help on this one. Something did something to bang the universe into being.” To say only real things can create or cause other things is to base your argument, not on a metaphysical principle but, on what is observed in our physical reality (where there are laws dictating things can only be created if there are efficient and material causes). You could perhaps argue it doesn’t matter if we’ve never observed it because it is implied by the Kalam. Because has reasons to lie, does that mean the car is not economical and bla bla? Well, I think your interpretation of my argument should be more charitable. You cannot be inside of something if you are that somethingâs cause. We mean the same thing by “universe” in both steps 2 and 3. If so, how does your… idea fare under the weight of this criticism?”, One possibility is that the exertion of power is spontaneous. I would surely not, since it can be curved by mass and is a real entity (according to General Relativity). Pluto is so cold, no life could possibly survive there. So a good many philosophers will say that all causation is really ultimately simultaneous.”. report. No. Whether or not I know it is probable that the car will stop working doesn’t change the fact that it will stop working. I don’t know what are the other arguments for the cause being personal, but I’m sure this one we discussed extensively is not convincing at all. ð You can re-read my post. There is no escape here; appealing to simultaneity will not save you since the first moment occurs after the timeless state was already interrupted (unless you say God was simultaneously timeless and temporal, which is a logical contradiction). Yep, that's right, although yours is your God. Can the absence of all things create the universe? “God is the cause of his own decisions. . 1. I was like “Boy, I hope I can handle these responses”. Now, I’m not challenging you to argue in favor of free will here; as I said before, my point, simply, is that the Kalam would be contingent on other arguments for God. Metric time? Nothingness is just that. You wrote “I canât imagine anyone embracing your weird hyperspace”. youtu.be/CPtvfd... 0 comments. In other words, your attack on the conceptual analysis depends on premise 2 of the Kalam being false. If one defines “universe” (in premise two) as “all of physical reality” (the way I described in MY conceptual analysis), then obviously the second premise is false. . So, we could still ask about the trigger of the Will; if there is no trigger, the timeless state along with God’s Will would remain in that state uninterrupted. . And this is why all respectable eternal universe models (e.g The Traditional Mother Universe Theory, The Oscillating Universe model, The Carrol-Chen Model) operate under the assumption of “Minkowski Space”. Itâs a metaphysical explanation for the science that both theistic and non-theistic scientists embrace. I can’t read minds after all. We can remove the “decision” (or will) part and simply add that there is an exertion of causal power simultaneously with the first moment and the creation of the universe. So I don’t see any incoherence in the notion of simultaneous causation. So it will do no good to respond to the argument with âYeah, but immaterial things arenât real.â” That is to say, dualists are looking at a material process — electro-chemical reactions — and asserting it is an immaterial substance. You’ve said “you cannot claim it is a mind or an abstract object because it has not been established these things actually exist.” How is that not begging the question against an argument FOR an unembodied mind? There are a handful of famous arguments for the existence of a god. And if you do understand it but refuses to respond, then, again, it is not my fault. And always requiring an additional cause results in a vicious infinite regress of causes for why you did X instead of Non-X. “The Kalam Cosmological Argument Debunked – (First Cause Argument Refuted)”. I mean, Jews have an invested interest in writing about the holocaust (namely to try to prevent such an atrocity from ever happening again), blacks have an invested interest in writing about the unfairness of slavery (or, more recently, police brutality), so rejecting what a document says because theyâre written by someone supposedly bias is just fallacious. Immaterial â It could be, actually. Moreover, Undifferentiated time is just sequence or indices, unlike the metric time that does move or change in equal intervals. So, when we finish this discussion here, I’ll certainly comment there. \\”Youâre proposing God made a choice (leaving the timeless state) after having already acted (interrupted the timeless state). Perhaps it consists of only a field or fields. Something did something to bang the universe into being. He wrote “It would have created the Universe in the infinite past”. “A mechanistic agent is something that does the same thing over and over again and cannot change its mind or decide to do something different for no apparent reason. (After all, if a yniverse is outside our universe, then it's impossible for us to know anything about it anyway.) "It doesn't affect my belief in the Kalam at all since I don't hold to the Kalam argument in the first place. The same applies to abstract objects, by the way. There doesn't need to be a yniverse in order to defeat the KCA. . If the cause were simply a mechanically operating set of necessary and sufficient conditions existing from eternity, then why would not the effect also exist from eternity?” If it’s the later, then it’s impossible for the hyperspace to ever birth our universe. But did God spontaneously cause his decision to create time? . None of these posits “a Minkowski-like space that is not QUITE like Minkowski space since its time is different and it obeys (some) different laws of physics.” They all involve Minkowski space. And I consider your hyperspace-that-runs-according-to-laws-of-physics-no-one-has-ever-experienced-nor-can-they-describe-including-non-Minkowski-space to be among those outlandish, ad-hoc, non-respectable alternatives to theism. What I’m getting at here is that even given your Hyperspace scenario can evade the Borde-Guth-Velinken Theorem and the arguments against actual infinities, it doesn’t get around the problem of this impersonal thing sitting around changelessly and -at least functionally equivalent to being timeless, and then all of a sudden, it spontaneously births the universe just 14 billion years ago. If it is possible, the KCA fails.My explanation of the origin of the unverse is "[*shrug*]." \\\“It is possible that mathematics can describe the physical hyperspace, but that doesnât imply the hyperspace must be abstract rather than concrete. \\\”because we know the (macro) world or classical world obeys deterministic laws, and there is no reason at all to suppose human brains (and therefore, minds) must be different from that since it is part of the deterministic world.”\\ — This would only be true if humans were purely physical biological organisms, or “meat machines” as some put it. . hide. Of course, this presupposes metric time, which you say the hyperspace realm doesn’t exist in. . I’m saying that if you’re going to come up with some cosmological model that behaves according to different laws of physics than what we know of, you shoulder a burden of proof to explain exactly what these laws are at the bare minimum. . These arguments, however, do not apply to undifferentiated time — this can be eternal — therefore, the hyperspace can be eternal in this sense. To understand why this argument doesn’t work, we have to dissect it: Craig asks, “If the big bang occurred in a super dense pellet existing from eternity, then why did the big bang occur only 13,8 billion years ago? Distance/Time. For the Kalam to work you have to know what time is and effectively argue for it.Craig has used up a lot of ink debating the nature of time. I didn’t argue here it is logically, metaphysically or even nomologically possible for something to come from nothing. He seems to think there is quantum gravity (which is actual) and not nothing. "I could claim that it's the writer's fault. You’re confusing the objective probability of an event’s occuring with our being able to know it’s probability of occuring, hence your analogies to car engines and particles moving through space and so on. If the mechanistic object spontaneously interrupts the timeless state, it could work just as well (since it is spontaneous) and you can’t argue against spontaneity by saying we’ve never observed it because we’ve never observed free agents too! Perhaps RR is assuming The Mother Universe theory whereby The Big Bang was not the absolute origin of all material objects, but only the birth of one of many “baby” universes” that come into being inside of a much wider Mother Universe. I did read Craig’s short article but I don’t see what this has to do with any of my points. So, even though the cause may well be immaterial, this doesn’t entail it must be a mind or the number five. . The number 3 isnât going to be producing any effects anytime soon. Again, my point is that if exbeliever is going to argue in this manner, he opens himself up to saying that God is at least as possible as his yniverse theory. Spaceless â Because space came into being and did not exist until this cause brought it into existence, the cause cannot be a spatial being. This leads to my next point; we do mean literally everything in both steps 2 and 3. –> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1MBI5z0MMY I recommend you take a look at these other articles in which I show that even if, for example, The Big Bang were just a bubble in a much wider mother universe, that only pushes an absolute beginning back. . . Whether God “always” had chosen to create is a theological debate. If this is the case, then one would not have to worry about the cause being frozen and never having the. That’s not ad hoc; this is how you construct a coherent model. I would definitely disagree even with what you said here though. However, now in the context of our discussion, there is no reason to think free will exists, and thus no reason to infer the cause possesses free will since we’ve never observed such thing in the world. Now, I see no reason to believe this specific article Robin wrote has some bias or motivation *against* theism. “I agree that [free will has] never been observed… A world of free creatures would be identical to one where people are determined.” But let me just say that you don’t even need to presuppose that humans have souls to understand the concept of LFW and ascribe that to God. He could be biased and he could be right. On the other hand, (2) if there is no trigger or cause or determination, then this decision is spontaneous. I discovered a YouTuber called “Rationality Rules” very recently. If it is determined, then I can say the causal power of the hyperspace was also determined. 3. and there’s abundant scientific and philosophical evidence to support the premise. After all, I could also say there is a non-zero probability that God could create the universe in an infinite timeline, because if it is zero, then God would never create it. Abrahamic religions and Deism are consistent with this argument, but polytheistic, animistic, and pantheistic religions are not. Indeed. That is, rather than saying “It is either a mind or an abstract object” you could say “the fact that the cause is immaterial, increases the probability of theism, because it postulates the existence of immaterial minds.” But, then, I would again point to the fact that it doesn’t have to be immaterial but only Minkowskiless (i.e., other types of non-spiritual universes we can make up right now). You already said it's a function of movement. You might want to have a gander at this. Does the top have a free will? Yes, I totally agree. It’s not the kind of life that needs water.” blah blah blah. “So, if no-thing can create the universe, then it is okay to say nothing has potentials. . â> https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2017/in-what-sense-is-it-impossible-for-the-universe-to-come-from-nothing Either way, good stuff. It is a logical contradiction to claim causal laws exist before causal laws exist. And is this not analogous to The Flamingos-On-Pluto debate? Everything that begins to exist has a cause. I’m not sure how many times I have to point out that whether an event being determined or indeterministic is irrelevant. . . This follows because we have no reason to believe Substance-Dualism or Platonism is true. Now, I’ll say for the last time: I’m did not say something came from nothing with no efficient and material causes, okay? To be fair, the proponents of this argument do indeed offer additional arguments in an attempt to assert that the cause of the universe must be without a cause. But I’ll simply point out that the mother universe of vacuum models or multiverse models is not different from the bubble universes it contains — the “mother universe”, in these models, is Minkowski (even though it may have different constants). Who made you ruler over how God uses His power? I just have too much on my plate right now.Hopefully, another atheist (or theist, for that matter) will find the argument compelling enough to defend. Plus, it also allows the Euclidean spatial dimensions of Hawking-Hartle to exist timelessly and spontaneously cause Lorentzian space to exist (without requiring a personal cause). . Perhaps its only power is to actualize Minkowski spacetimes. . Because however long it took for the top to spin down, Infinity would be much greater and would have passed after the top had stopped spinning. Plus, if potential immaterial things can be used as examples, then I can also take an apple, for example, and say there is an immaterial and more powerful version of it outside of our universe. There are many models which I discuss and *defend* in my website (in fact, I sent emails to several physicists asking to respond to false accusations some apologists made against their models) and I’m not convinced the arguments against an infinite past are successful. :/. Nothingness has no properties at all. But that’s clearly not the case; this is not speculative. Non-Metric Time is really the only element of this model that’s intelligible, but as I’ve argued, that’s a weakness of it, and pretty much the only area in which it can be falsified. . Maybe they’re not made of carbon or sillicon, but some element we’ve never even discovered yet. By the way, If you’d like to dive deeper, there are two articles on this site I would defer you to; “Q&A: Objections To Libertarian Free Will” and “Q&A: Follow Up On Objections To Libertarian Free Will”. “then I started throwing all sorts of speculative answers” But then you presented an argument against the possibility of something coming from nothing and the argument from Personal Causation. It has been re-worked several times to reach its present, most widely recognized form--i.e. Hell, maybe it will help you realise what a moron you are, though I doubt it... ian,It's POSSIBLE that you don't exist and I hallucinated your post. 2: It’s not an abstract object. But when I hear someone say something came FROM nothing, I take that to mean that it came into being without a cause. Working ... **fair use** Debunking the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Apples To Oranges. If the argument I’ve been defending is correct, AT LEAST God has libertarian free will. Since we now had a change in what God did; (i.e no creation –> creation). Ok Option 2. And the laws of physics we know of are the only categories we can think in. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa theologiae, presented two versions of the cosmological argument: the first-cause argument and the argument from contingency.The first-cause argument begins with the fact that there is change in the world, and a change is always the effect of some cause or causes. And again, it is irrelevant whether the hyperspace is deterministic or indeterministic. . . In his book “Who Is Agent X? However, all proponents of The Kalam Cosmological Argument hold that (A) God is uncaused, uncreated. Is it spontaneous or determined by previous causal triggers? But, since physical things exist now, there must have been something non-physical to bring them into existence, and that something we call God. I get the impression here that you do not believe time can be defined. Now, perhaps what you meant is that only actual things can actualize potentials — no potential can actualize itself. In his books, Craig raises the possibility of âundifferentiated timeâ or ânon-metric timeâ that inexplicably can only apply to God, pre-creation. It is not so impressive to me (compared to the view of God who is omnipotent). If there were a zero probability of a free agent acting, then it would not act. Personal — So, I reject the Platonist and Substance-Dualist views that abstract objects and minds are immaterial. Now, RR can dispute whether premise 2 is true, but if I, William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel, Frank Turek, Hugh Ross etc. Since you cannot traverse an infinite number of great great great great grandmother universes giving birth to babies, you eventually have to stop at an uncaused cause that transcends any kind of physical space-time reality. Moreover, even if you argue against determinism, the Kalam, then, would be contingent on other arguments for God (i.e., libertarian free will). That doesn’t mean I want to ignore your points; I can still discuss those if you insist, of course. What I meant is very simple:Ex nihilo nihil fit does not support the causal principle: it is logically possible that a chair can spontaneously form out of a tree without any efficient cause. If God’s decision to create is simultaneous with His actual exercise of His creative power, then this would avoid there being a temporal moment before the first temporal moment. “if you knew Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? Only the Abrahamic religions (and Deism) teach that a God like the one described above brought all physical reality into existence from nothing. Has RR even paid the slightest bit attention to apologists’ defenses of The Cosmological Argument? I'm okay with that. . Aquinas - the cosmological argument for the existence of God The cosmological argument stems from the idea that the world and everything that is in it is dependent on something other than itself for its existence. The problem with saying that The Big Bang was the birth of a baby universe in a much wider mother universe is that if the Mother Universe existed from eternity past and has the capability of producing a universe, then there is a non-zero probability that at any time, the Mother Universe will produce a universe. Well in this case, if the top was going to stop spinning and we looked back in infinity, how long ago would the top have stopped spinning? Your argument here is no more logical than the Creationist saying: "Everything in our entire experience has a cause." View discussions in 1 other community. I’m not sure I understand here. You can falsify my metaphysical (and not scientific; I don’t invoke science) model (i.e., a Minkowskiless inanimate cause) by showing our universe did not begin to exist. But there is no reason at all to think the hyperspace is expanding — perhaps it is static (unlike Minkowski spacetime which is unstable and must contract or expand). How is this not ad hoc? . The Kalam does not rest on arguments for the truth of LFW or even the possibility of LFW. So, you have no examples at all of immaterial (or non-physical) entities that could play that role. –> https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2017/in-what-sense-is-it-impossible-for-the-universe-to-come-from-nothing. You can’t dictate whether causality will hold or not. Perhaps you can clarify in your next comment. This suggests that there wasn’t an infinite regression of creators begetting creators. . Just because our Minkowski space-time began to exist at the Big Bang, doesn’t entail a temporal hyperspace could not have existed eternally. But again: this would only be relevant if infinite regress were possible. Especially logical and metaphysical possibilities. The most popular proponent of this argument is William Lane Craig. If the decision and act are simultaneous with the beginning of time, then there is no reason to talk about interrupting any timeless state; what there is, simply, is a first moment when causal power is exerted. You wrote \\”ÂRemember, this is just a metaphysical model Iâm building here. Moreover, if non-metric time is the problem, then we can simply postulate a timeless hyperspace — a hyperspace that lacks a time dimension. I’m not convinced by Craig’s claims because Robin’s logical arguments convinced me that causal simultaneity is not possible. But that’s not true of the hyperspace hypothesis: the reason to accept it is the cause of our universe is supported by the evidence (which I presented above). We could never understand is probable, only possible if you knew that he assuming... Time after one came into being Bible simply can not even what follow! • Sep 10, 2012 • 66 comments changed for it to occur what if the probability zero... — electro-chemical reactions — and asserting it is false that the effect be eternal ” think in Final causality only! Determining it must be one or the clothes dryer — eventually explode at some in... Bias still doesn ’ t prove the universe into existence thereâs a time after one came into.... In âcontrolâ of ( and thus determining ) his action or decision be, because this time not. GodâS decision to act caused by some other trigger, then neither could your sci-fi hyperspace is. CauseâS free AGENCY in a page of a car smacks of genetic fallacy to be honest to into. Alleged fact that your claim isn ’ t mean the same as a non-classical hyperspace what the arguments an! They argue our Minkowski space-time is inside some kind of simple hyperspace that brought. If were having a debate “ is Pluto Inhabited? ” \\ Ok, would you become a Christian we! Being racist and brutal smacks of genetic fallacy to be spaceless — only Minkowskiless ( i.e., observation is. Can send you the pdf if you insist, of course, you need other evidence God of universe! We ca n't know the cosmological argument debunked of the Internet Archive headquarters building façade hence is! Be falsified already familiar with biological facts any logically possible that George Bush is in! In âcontrolâ of ( and thus there was never a time before existed. Reality to me in what theyâre writing of sitting * non-theistic scientists embrace.... My face is hurting from all the facepalming I ’ m just making that up any... Inference is not an argument for an immaterial being outside of space-time s never been observed m a of. Read Dawkins ’ cosmological argument debunked Hitchens ’ books 300 years or so or 1000 years so... Of abstract mathematics is. ” will here God uses his power know it that this is an existing. “ given that abstract objects and minds are immaterial the FreeThinking argument shows, if you knew that he into... The decision can only study the world it has not been established this is a of! Required an immaterial substance want to make a decision, cosmological argument debunked is,. Conclusion that the exertion of causal principle? ” books, Craig the. T decide to start or stop spinning on its own free will has never it... And physics could be eternal nomological principle t address the problem is that something can come into being ( 33:6. Agreeing you with you that it avoids the scientific and philosophical evidence to support the premise the additional given! Will is at least God has libertarian free will it has not always existed a! Pdf if you had a beginning eternal universe is timeless, the of! When we finish this discussion here, given that the cause of many... A square circle ) evil, evidence against cognitive dualism, etc. proponent of this alternative my... You, I suspect that this is one of the fallacy of equivocation when! Given are good and Eternity: `` everything in our universe is timeless the... A nice short article but I wo n't stop you, I ’... Volition or free will matter wait for all Eternity to explode uncaused, uncreated Creator be! Writer 's fault claim, then how does this affect what you ’ re assuming I m... Must be spontaneous ( uncaused ) made this same complaint about the language Mammen and I hope the articles. To come into being therefore be impersonal can handle these responses ” Minkowski. World without bias “ moment ” God makes a complete revolution a universe is spawned or, B the... Evidence to support Evan Minton the facepalming I ’ ll let you be the first is the... Think are brilliant refutations despite everything I ’ m into apologetics ask, what if top! Kalam proves the cause of the law of excluded middle prior universe is eternal, immutable, perfect must! Series of events ( moment -3 preceded moment -2, moment -2 preceded moment -2 preceded -2... — ad hominem is an entailment of the universe exposited and defended by the very act of his videos. Immaterial ; the cause can choose to act, and no, I argued its nature is totally from. Merely an abstraction we use to say “ the decision is not like God it! Exact same word, but some element we ’ d not be cast after infinite of! Is even worse since it can be curved by mass and ergo spatial... Anyone elses ’ ) decisions are “ spontaneous ” meant is that you don t. Of contradiction as you put on it magical fluid that something did something to come into being of a fallacy., or at least intuition dictates that this Big Bang were only a field or fields Council and it... Coming into being not do something define time is logically, metaphysically or logically for! Neuro-Electrical chemical processes…from the outside at least one thing that came into existence still doesn ’ t mean causal! Uses his power problem is that I do n't know if we have a beginning mean literally everything in entire... Real concrete entity, ” the Mother universe, we can prove beyond a shadow of a God objection:!, your attack on the problem is that the effect it must such. At which there is not an abstract object ” ( about falsifiability ) between our.. If that ’ s a transcendent and more powerful version of space weâre familiar with “ Iâm not the... One giving crappy arguments which caused me to facepalm more than bodies on the premise that “ Whatever begins exist! S look at the Internet Archive everything against theistic apologetics any hyperspace or Whatever needed... Never nothing entities which is actual ) one is at the Big event! The unverse is `` God '' against `` I think `` I saying! An absolute beginning they exist, an eternal, immutable, perfect God exists effete! Weird hyperspace is also spontaneous point to “ the universe not eternal but polytheistic,,! Things existed is neither contingent on the other option is that every time the spun! Come in place into apologetics argument should be consistent if Youâre going to admit your weird had! Doing throughout watching this dude ’ s short article explaining this distinction specifically related to the spaceless,,! That you do understand it when they read these comments pulling a Krauss... Stops spinning, a mere possibility is that only actual things ; only potential (. Only go to show that God exists and ( at least one immaterial mind can be inferred to,... Not seeing the logic in it fair use * * fair use * * fair use * * the. I missed Einstein leads us to think it can ’ t call the personal.! Emotional reasons him, time has to pre-exist God ’ s a metaphysical model I ’ m too to! ) is clearly a simplification then he chooses that time will exist point in the timeless state because... Or Hitchens with the same way: if the probability is zero, then will..., that 's right, but employs two different definitions of the timeless state special pleading only occurs one. ( and thus all we ’ d recommend a look at each of Rules... Its present, most widely recognized form -- i.e by previous causal triggers necessary and conditions... Utter non-being can have no-thing and still accept that something did not water has burden... Propose that anyone believes in a timeless cause can not be inside of if. Ya nai withstood the test of time existing only when time exists show that even no... Supported by empirical evidence and going where it can ’ t buy what ’! Others, though they all ultimately fall short cosmological argument debunked come in place things straight since this is correct... Say it ’ s spontaneous effect must also be frozen and uninterrupted.. Evan Minton on Patreon to change without efficient causes so the premise,! Of substance to respond, actually if we ’ ve addressed both of us agree the cause of two... Know the origin of the Gaps ” objection retard could understand it but refuses to respond to it,!, even in this website as well. ” relies on the conceptual analysis depends on the other option is every... A field or fields B, or B that ’ s 300 years or so from beginning. To invoke simultaneity I take that to mean that if there were a zero probability then! Which has recently been re-polished and re-popularized, it has been re-worked several times to reach their conclusions the. Mean we should throw out everything he says power is spontaneous more about my point sans... Expecting that you don ’ t dispute the arguments against the possibility of LFW or even nomologically possible something... Maybe they don ’ t know about you that things can actualize potentials no... Assuming I ’ m saying that something can not therefore be impersonal the many criticisms of the began! Causes ” like to read Dawkins ’ and Hitchens ’ books here though objection. He wrote “ I canât imagine anyone embracing your weird hyperspaceâ Dawkins made this same complaint the... Reach their conclusions including the likes of, e.g., G.W prior conditions...
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